3rd Gen Engine Failures
- Thread starter Mattedfred
- Start date
The NHSTA filing report just became available.
As of May 20, 2024, based on a diligent review of records, Toyota’s best engineering judgements that there are 166 Toyota Field Technical Reports and 824 warranty claims on the engines in the subject vehicles that have been received from U.S. sources that relate or may relate to this condition and which were considered in the decision to submit this report.
So we can safely say there's been over 800 engine failures.
As of May 20, 2024, based on a diligent review of records, Toyota’s best engineering judgements that there are 166 Toyota Field Technical Reports and 824 warranty claims on the engines in the subject vehicles that have been received from U.S. sources that relate or may relate to this condition and which were considered in the decision to submit this report.
So we can safely say there's been over 800 engine failures.
Definitely not going to be a cheap fix for Toyota if they must change a 100K engines. I'm sure they are scrambling to find some fix that does not involve block replacement.
They just set a record for Tundra Hybrid sales last month according to press release I just got. Granted, this is great spin since… they’ve only had a hybrid Tundra for a year.
Fightnfire
Moderator
I have to guess it will have some sort of an impact but I don't think it will really show up in the numbers much. The average consumer isn't as deep into the weeds as we are with our trucks. Most people still think of Toyota as the leader in reliability but that hasn't been the case with their trucks for a while.
My two cents is this will all blow over by the end of the year and people will forget about it like they did when the 5.7L V8 launched with its numerous problems.
Yep. Because right now it's about 2-year old trucks.
I don't know about that. This problem is different than just about any other we've seen. The failure is so catastrophic, random, and extremely expensive that I can't think of anything like it. I think the worst part is they seem to happen at random mileage with no warning. It's not like you can think you're safe if you buy a truck that made it past, 10k or 20k miles. Objectively speaking, I wouldn't touch any of these new Tundras. Unless more info comes out on the cause and how to tell if your engine is affected, it's all just a crapshoot if it will fail.
Fightnfire
Moderator
All I know is extended warranty companies execs have to be vacationing in nice places these days.
Just curious, why do people immediately go to design flaw? I mean this engine is used world-wide and in numerous vehicles for the past several years. It also isn't like Toyota designed its first engine in the company's history. I just see that comment and I can't figure out the motive behind it.
Fightnfire
Moderator
Well it is spinning main bearings at a rate not really seen in a recent engine, at first it was 2022 having issues, now 2023 and probably 2024. As I said back in the beginning of this thread, we won't ever know the truth. If Toyota doesn't want people to speculate, own up but they won't do that for obvious legal reasons. Also, this isn't just isolated to the Tundra, Lexus vehicles with this engine are also having issues and throwing bearings.
It seems like a design flaw or issue not a we didn't clean it issue. They'll figure it out I'm sure but when and who gets screwed in the meantime?
For me, a design flaw would have been found during testing. They literally hook up engines and try to destroy them by starving them of oil and running them so hot it glows hot red for days.
A mixup at the factory? That's a whole heck of a lot more believable to me.
Also, this type of comment thread happens with all the manufacturers. Every time Ford/GM or Ram has a recall, the comments immediately go to design flaw. I just find that fascinating.
Fightnfire
Moderator
Maybe it's just what we qualify as a design flaw but I disagree pretty strongly. If an engine is designed to work with a specific fuel pump and it has a widespread failure that is a design flaw in my mind. They were designed to work together and it did not work out.
GM has widespread lifter issues, we'll never hear what the real problem was but I'm sure they have fixed it. Whether it be a different part or different manufacturer it's original design had many failures.
Ford still can't seem to figure out its 10 speed transmissions clearly the transmission is fine itself because it works perfectly in GM vehicles. So it's probably a software issue with Ford but needless to say they design the transmission and they design the software to work together, it's a design flaw.
What else could it be? These issue sometimes require recalls for fixes and we still don't hear the real issue at play other times there is no recall they just cover the issues that pop up with warranties.
Clearly stress testing the engine pre-production doesn't catch all of the problems or we wouldn't have had fuel pump issues, lifter issues, Ford transmission issues, Hemi tick (lifter) issues etc.
It might not be a design flaw that would be picked up during testing. The clearances on these engines are so tight now that just one machine slightly out of tolerance could screw things up. They use 0w-20 oil for a reason. The tolerances are roughly 10x tighter than they were a few decades ago. That thinner oil is necessary to get into the tight places and flow properly. Toyota allowed 5W-20 oil to be used for 1 oil change during the pandemic when there were shortages, but they added a disclaimer that 0w-20 must be used on the following oil change. If you look into the detail of the 3.4 engine, they are using different bearing material than the 5.7. The 5.7 engine already require 0w-20 oil. I am only speculating, but I would bet the manufacturing could not meet the extreme tolerances required to keep the bearings lubed enough. It's even worse with a turbo engine and the extra stresses they have to deal with. Could I be wrong...sure. But I know that 2024's have had bearing failures. It's documented on other forums. Toyota is probably scrambling to figure it out right now. I hope Fightnfire is wrong that Toyota won't tell us when they do find out, but I suspect he is right. I like the idea of twin turbo, small displacement gas engine for the power. However, building them en masse may take an extra level of QA/QC that even Toyota hasn't prepared for at this time.
If the root cause was debris in the engine, that's not a design flaw. And if excessive wear is occurring to the point of seizing an engine, there isn't much else to attribute to it other than FOD. It's still an issue that needs to be fixed, which they say they have. If it were something about the engine design, they would have continued to have the same failures but apparently, they have not. Probably why they have waited this long to release info, wanting to make sure it's been truly fixed.
The GM/Ram lifter issue can be considered a design flaw. If the part is made to spec and it fails prematurely at that high of a rate, then the part or the system was designed poorly. If it was just a bad batch of parts that were manufactured incorrectly, they change those, scrub the supply shelves, and life is good. Finding the root cause is often exceedingly difficult. This cause is very embarrassing but very fixable. A design failure would cost infinitely more to fix so they don't want that. They'll take the embarrassment.
The GM/Ram lifter issue can be considered a design flaw. If the part is made to spec and it fails prematurely at that high of a rate, then the part or the system was designed poorly. If it was just a bad batch of parts that were manufactured incorrectly, they change those, scrub the supply shelves, and life is good. Finding the root cause is often exceedingly difficult. This cause is very embarrassing but very fixable. A design failure would cost infinitely more to fix so they don't want that. They'll take the embarrassment.
Hilux
Well-known member
Hmm Toyota getting ready to crank out more replacement Tundra engines?
That is interesting timing.