Thoughts on over the air updates

Dusdaddy said:
So? That's kinda the whole idea. And as Fightnfire stated, it can be used for good as well. I'd love it if mine could be updated to use Android Auto for example. Or even update the Bluetooth.


Why can't it be more? The funny part, that's what people said about cell phones in the early days. "They're just appliances, they just need to make calls." That changed and I think for the better. So why can't the vehicles be able to download new features as they come out?
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Because it's an applicance. Are you downloading donky kong? Twitter? What new software features do you think the manufactures are going to give to you?

What have we seen to date? GM selling your data to insurance companies and them charging you for "hard accelerations" lol, Toyota and BMW selling you subscription services like remote start. And of course the kill switch which is coming. You can look forward to that future all you like but I suspect you're just arguing now for the sake of it.

Dusdaddy said:
That ship has pretty much sailed. The damn grocery stores have more data on us than these trucks. And we won't even talk about Google or any of the social media outlets.
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Google can turn off my truck or sell my data to insurance companies?

Dusdaddy said:
I think you are being a bit too paranoid about it. Believe it or not, in today's world, it's so much better than it was. I remember when my SSN was printed in the local newspaper. Can harm be done with our trucks Tx/Rx'ng? Of course, but will it? It's like keyless entry. Can a hacker snatch the signal to use it to steal my car later? Sure, but I am more than willing to take that chance in trade for convenience.
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There is no convenience, only downsides. As I said, map updates (which at this point is the only real conceivable upgrades that you would get on a car/truck) can easily be applied when you're getting it serviced for other reasons.
 
zonedout said:
Because it's an applicance. Are you downloading donky kong? Twitter? What new software features do you think the manufactures are going to give to you?

What have we seen to date? GM selling your data to insurance companies and them charging you for "hard accelerations" lol, Toyota and BMW selling you subscription services like remote start. And of course the kill switch which is coming. You can look forward to that future all you like but I suspect you're just arguing now for the sake of it.


Google can turn off my truck or sell my data to insurance companies?



There is no convenience, only downsides. As I said, map updates (which at this point is the only real conceivable upgrades that you would get on a car/truck) can easily be applied when you're getting it serviced for other reasons.
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Since I bought my truck in 2022 I have not received any “over-the-air” updates. I think most of these updates are more applicable to EVs.
 
I think there are valid concerns about privacy and manufacturers trying different things to make money via subscriptions. BMW has tried to charge for CarPlay and heated seats in the past and that has not worked for them. Anytime a brand tries to take advantage of these types of things one of the others will stand up and not do that and people gravitate towards those brands as they should.

I've worked in the tech industry for a while now and I'm not nearly as cynical as some are, partially because people vote with their money and the majority want more tech. That being said I don't think most people want to pay subscriptions for their vehicle. Some might like having extra data and using manufacturer's navigation, but most want to use CarPlay or Android Auto because the experience is just better. My perfect system would be something like the Toyota screen, 14in and super clear, and with CarPlay/AA even if it were just wired. Wireless is nice, but not needed. But I'd also like the system to have a GPS chip so my phone can use that for positioning as they do when cars have the Nav built in, but I wouldn't need the manufacturer's navigation at all.

I also wouldn't need any cell connection to the internet, I could have a WiFi as it would need that for Wireless Carplay/AA anyway, but then only update when connected to my home network or through the USB port. That way you get solid updates when you want to apply them, automatically if your vehicle connects to Wifi at home and there's no need for subscriptions.

On the flip side in the connected world, the one area that I don't understand why you are so upset about @zonedout is the kill switch. Two of my best friends are in law enforcement and being able to disable a persons car would be hugely beneficial. They could stop criminals in safer places with less possibility for collateral damage. High speed pursuits wouldn't be necessary. And if someone stole my truck, I'd be more likely to get it back undamaged.

I struggle to see where a law abiding citizen would be worried about a feature like that, outside of hackers, which could be a concern. If you lease or get a loan for your vehicle, it's not yours until it's paid off and if you miss payments the bank has a right to shut it down or reclaim their property. The only other government use I see is for criminal activity. Could there be other things that happen? Maybe.

The right vs wrong part of this argument doesn't really matter too much though as the majority of people still want more tech, how that plays out going forward we'll have to see. It could be that like with BMW, Nissan decides it will never have connected cars and if suddenly everyone is buying Nissan, the other manufacturers will change their tune. The arguments on both sides are valid, but convenience and coolness often win over security and privacy.

Anyway I was just going to post this and stay away from this, but....

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Beninbeta said:
I think there are valid concerns about privacy and manufacturers trying different things to make money via subscriptions. BMW has tried to charge for CarPlay and heated seats in the past and that has not worked for them. Anytime a brand tries to take advantage of these types of things one of the others will stand up and not do that and people gravitate towards those brands as they should.

I've worked in the tech industry for a while now and I'm not nearly as cynical as some are, partially because people vote with their money and the majority want more tech. That being said I don't think most people want to pay subscriptions for their vehicle. Some might like having extra data and using manufacturer's navigation, but most want to use CarPlay or Android Auto because the experience is just better. My perfect system would be something like the Toyota screen, 14in and super clear, and with CarPlay/AA even if it were just wired. Wireless is nice, but not needed. But I'd also like the system to have a GPS chip so my phone can use that for positioning as they do when cars have the Nav built in, but I wouldn't need the manufacturer's navigation at all.

I also wouldn't need any cell connection to the internet, I could have a WiFi as it would need that for Wireless Carplay/AA anyway, but then only update when connected to my home network or through the USB port. That way you get solid updates when you want to apply them, automatically if your vehicle connects to Wifi at home and there's no need for subscriptions.

On the flip side in the connected world, the one area that I don't understand why you are so upset about @zonedout is the kill switch. Two of my best friends are in law enforcement and being able to disable a persons car would be hugely beneficial. They could stop criminals in safer places with less possibility for collateral damage. High speed pursuits wouldn't be necessary. And if someone stole my truck, I'd be more likely to get it back undamaged.

I struggle to see where a law abiding citizen would be worried about a feature like that, outside of hackers, which could be a concern. If you lease or get a loan for your vehicle, it's not yours until it's paid off and if you miss payments the bank has a right to shut it down or reclaim their property. The only other government use I see is for criminal activity. Could there be other things that happen? Maybe.

The right vs wrong part of this argument doesn't really matter too much though as the majority of people still want more tech, how that plays out going forward we'll have to see. It could be that like with BMW, Nissan decides it will never have connected cars and if suddenly everyone is buying Nissan, the other manufacturers will change their tune. The arguments on both sides are valid, but convenience and coolness often win over security and privacy.

Anyway I was just going to post this and stay away from this, but....

View attachment 414
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On those vehicles with”ON-STAR” can’t those be disabled if reported as stolen?
 
NMTRUCKER said:
Looks like “ON-STAR” can locate and disable a car.
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One issue that I've read about with the OnStar implementation is that in the time it takes the police to confirm the car is stolen the thieves can disable the OnStar module, so no shutdown or tracking. Would only apply to your more proficient thieves, but it's disappointing that disabling it that quickly is even possible.
 
zonedout said:
Because it's an applicance. Are you downloading donky kong? Twitter? What new software features do you think the manufactures are going to give to you?
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Don't know why you went there but I mentioned specific examples. In addition, some brands have already shown how it can be used add features the vehicle was not originally sold with. Sure, it can be termed as just a money-maker for the manufacturer. Then again, it could be much cheaper to pay for an update rather than buy a new vehicle.

zonedout said:
What have we seen to date? GM selling your data to insurance companies and them charging you for "hard accelerations" lol, Toyota and BMW selling you subscription services like remote start. And of course the kill switch which is coming. You can look forward to that future all you like but I suspect you're just arguing now for the sake of it.
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Sure there will be worse case scenarios. And like anything, we just hope there is more good than bad. GM learned that. And now others know as well before they even attempt it. I actually signed up for my insurance company's program to track my driving to receive a discount and I'm quite pleased with the result. Will they screw me if I screw up? Yep. In a heartbeat. That is the business of insurance companies: High-risk, high-cost.

zonedout said:
There is no convenience, only downsides. As I said, map updates (which at this point is the only real conceivable upgrades that you would get on a car/truck) can easily be applied when you're getting it serviced for other reasons.
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And this is where we disagree. I see nothing but convenience. I for one do not bring my vehicle in for service as I do it myself. It's been back to the dealer once and that was for a recall. My maps are grossly outdated and worthless but instead of a simple OTA update, I would have to pay Mopar $150 for the new discs to load. So, I use my phone. Which sucks as it is not integrated into the screen like Android Auto which maybe could have been added with an OTA update.

Will it ever reach the point of law enforcement having access to a vehicle "kill switch" that could be used to end car chases or stop stolen vehicles where they are? Nah, I don't think it'll ever get approved regardless of how good it sounds on the surface. Too many ways for it to be used incorrectly. Regardless of what opinion we each have, I'm sure OTAs are here to stay.
 
chaseydog said:
One issue that I've read about with the OnStar implementation is that in the time it takes the police to confirm the car is stolen the thieves can disable the OnStar module, so no shutdown or tracking. Would only apply to your more proficient thieves, but it's disappointing that disabling it that quickly is even possible.
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Good point. Besides, we don't want it to be easy to engage. I can see if LE had the ability to use it too quickly and without verification how that could get ugly. Think of pissed off ex-spouses making a revenge call to the cops. It could turn into the vehicle version of "SWATting"...lol.
 
chaseydog said:
One issue that I've read about with the OnStar implementation is that in the time it takes the police to confirm the car is stolen the thieves can disable the OnStar module, so no shutdown or tracking. Would only apply to your more proficient thieves, but it's disappointing that disabling it that quickly is even possible.
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The vast majority of stolen cars I've been aware of are not stolen by the proficient intelligent type that would be required to disable OnStar; so it's protection against the vast majority, not the professional ring. Still worth it imo.

I just make sure to wear my aluminum foil hat when I'm in it.
 
I watch this guys channel because I like Physics and he explains things better than most. I just watched this video about a computer virus attack. It's pretty interesting. If you are not interested in the main topic of video, jump to about 10 minutes or so when he talks about appliances, cars, etc.
 
Dusdaddy said:
Don't know why you went there but I mentioned specific examples. In addition, some brands have already shown how it can be used add features the vehicle was not originally sold with. Sure, it can be termed as just a money-maker for the manufacturer. Then again, it could be much cheaper to pay for an update rather than buy a new vehicle.



Sure there will be worse case scenarios. And like anything, we just hope there is more good than bad. GM learned that. And now others know as well before they even attempt it. I actually signed up for my insurance company's program to track my driving to receive a discount and I'm quite pleased with the result. Will they screw me if I screw up? Yep. In a heartbeat. That is the business of insurance companies: High-risk, high-cost.



And this is where we disagree. I see nothing but convenience. I for one do not bring my vehicle in for service as I do it myself. It's been back to the dealer once and that was for a recall. My maps are grossly outdated and worthless but instead of a simple OTA update, I would have to pay Mopar $150 for the new discs to load. So, I use my phone. Which sucks as it is not integrated into the screen like Android Auto which maybe could have been added with an OTA update.

Will it ever reach the point of law enforcement having access to a vehicle "kill switch" that could be used to end car chases or stop stolen vehicles where they are? Nah, I don't think it'll ever get approved regardless of how good it sounds on the surface. Too many ways for it to be used incorrectly. Regardless of what opinion we each have, I'm sure OTAs are here to stay.
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The better way to do map updates is either at the dealer (again, they're not coming out every month, maybe every few years) or just via a usb stick. Both are infinitely better than OTA. There is nothing about loading your own maps that requires it to be $150 from mopar. CDs are pennies and a stamp is next to it. If they charge you $150 for cds then they can charge you $150 for OTA updates. I paid more than that to update my Garmin back in 2014 or so and that was also through a windows firmeware updater connected to the internet. That's a complete side issue.

GM didn't learn a thing. They got caught and did what they had to to avoid even more backlash, but no brand is able to ignore the juicy fruit here. Not picking on GM, they're just the latest to get caught. This kind of thing will continue and just spiral out of control.

Is OTA here to stay? Yes, that's not the argument. The argument is whether its a good idea and it absolutely is not. This stuff needs to be avoided the plague.
 
zonedout said:
The better way to do map updates is either at the dealer (again, they're not coming out every month, maybe every few years) or just via a usb stick. Both are infinitely better than OTA. There is nothing about loading your own maps that requires it to be $150 from mopar. CDs are pennies and a stamp is next to it. If they charge you $150 for cds then they can charge you $150 for OTA updates. I paid more than that to update my Garmin back in 2014 or so and that was also through a windows firmeware updater connected to the internet. That's a complete side issue.

GM didn't learn a thing. They got caught and did what they had to to avoid even more backlash, but no brand is able to ignore the juicy fruit here. Not picking on GM, they're just the latest to get caught. This kind of thing will continue and just spiral out of control.

Is OTA here to stay? Yes, that's not the argument. The argument is whether its a good idea and it absolutely is not. This stuff needs to be avoided the plague.
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But sadly, that $150 disc is all that is available to me if I want to update my Uconnect maps. There is no other option. A used disc on Ebay is the only other option. And as stated, thank god for Google maps. I just hate that I have to use my phone and it isn't integrated.
 
I haven't watched a lot of Louis Rossmann videos, but I just now watched this one regarding user data in vehicles. He's quite blunt and doesn't hold back his opinion. The topic is about someone in Singapore having their car data used against them. However, he later goes on to talk about a judge ruling that it's perfectly legal for automakers to gather your personal data...including texts and calls! I don't have my phone tied to my infotainment system now, but I have in past vehicles I owned.

 
I think this is a good Livestream topic. Last week I had a back and forth on email with an owner who was so frustrated with his Tundra’s infotainment screen, he wanted to sell the truck. I reached out to my contact at Toyota about it and they dug into it. It turns out, this person had disabled all the OTA updates and the quirks with the system compounded on themselves since they never updated it. When I asked what version of software the truck had, the owner told me they had deleted and reinstalled the app several times. Uh…

Clearly, this person was deleting the app on their phone and never considered the infotainment system to be a piece of software as well that would need updates.

There seems to be a big disconnect on this issue. Some people never want OTA updates then get really frustrated when glitches happens. Others don’t understand their infotainment screen is software like a computer or cell phone. And others accept all OTA updates. Really mixed.
 
Your going to have to face the fact millions of people addicted to tech, mostly phone and now infotainment systems along with stuff at home, thats the reality, collisions are way up because of this, if you have a ton of social media apps on your car infotainment systems and phone, you have to make a decision to keep your eyes on the road and drive, or look at some social media app where they send a picture of their lunch or junk. You can modify the OS's as Android and Apple a based on linux, if you don't understand it, your going to have to do research, it is time consuming if you have zero experience, but its not hard catching on, but you have to commit, learn for example what linux commands like "sudo, bash, nano etc mean, if it sounds like it would be overwhelming, it really isn't, android auto is custom made for the manufacturer "GAS" Google Automotive Services, but its still android, there ways to open up developer options on these OS's, turn on some of the options, connect with a bluetooth keyboard, install a terminal app and your on your way, you will be able do what ever you want with live updates, best would be OS asks you if you want to update yes/no, there are so many thing you can do, Apple is a little different getting developer option, but basically the same getting at the OS, if you have any interest or curiosity in this, the XDA site is a great place to learn and actually find out what you can do.

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Rogue Skunk said:
if you have a ton of social media apps on your car infotainment systems and phone, you have to make a decision to keep your eyes on the road and drive, or look at some social media app where they send a picture of their lunch or junk.
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This problem is going away with new vehicles have eye-sensing technology and if you look away too long, they will alert you and even slow you to a stop.
 
OTA should not be a thing in cars. I work in software security and cars are a nightmare security wise. If something needs to be updated, it should be done via the dealer and not over a broadcasting insecure connection.

I don't think most people realize that anybody with a phone and 2 hours on YouTube can start messing around with pretty much any new car being sold right now. Why do you think car theft has seen such an increase lately. Everything needs to be ''smart'' or ''connected'' but always at the cost of security.
 
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