Kyle from Out of Spec just made a video talking about over the air updates. I have thought about this quite a bit. I am not a fan of them when you have no control. My first big burn on pushed software updates dates back to when I did engineering work and some of the software I used for my job got updated. It took me a few days to be able to do my job again because custom scripts I used would no longer work at all. My bosses had no sympathy. I also have experienced tons of problems with Windows updates in the past messing with something either in another program or my audio devices. It doesn't happen as much now, but I hate that I can't really opt out of them at this point. The worst was a recall I got on my F-150 over 10 years ago and it messed with something that caused the truck to be doggy and get worse mpg. Granted this wasn't an over the air update, but I couldn't go back after the recall was in the truck. Anyway, those are the reasons I don't like them. Just wanted to hear other's thoughts on forced updates. I know they are coming and we probably will have to live with it on newer vehicles.
Thoughts on over the air updates
- Thread starter duggydo
- Start date
Beninbeta
Well-known member
I think vehicle OTAs are different than Windows, phone, or engineering software updates, mostly because the brand controls all or the software on the vehicle. Generally, vehicle manufacturers, besides Tesla, Rivian and those types, don't push updates very often and the good dev teams test the heck out of them before release.
That being said with even being digital now and many preferring to use CarPlay and Android Auto, there will be issues. GM had a big one with the Colorado last year. I had a one issue where I tapped the update button I a parking lot on my Tesla and it took like 40 mins. That was just not smart on my part.
On the flip side, they won't be pushing out updates unless they are fixing something that needs fixed or feel the experience will be far better. So they will generally be good. Besides that one Tesla update, every other one I have had from Audi and Hyundai have improved thing's I had a complaint about or I didn't really notice anything.
There were times where I had to re-apply the settings I had set after the update, but I don't have an issue with that.
People who don't like software are going to be skeptical and not like them, but they're here to stay and I just want the dev teams to be really good at what they do and be sure to test too.
That being said with even being digital now and many preferring to use CarPlay and Android Auto, there will be issues. GM had a big one with the Colorado last year. I had a one issue where I tapped the update button I a parking lot on my Tesla and it took like 40 mins. That was just not smart on my part.
On the flip side, they won't be pushing out updates unless they are fixing something that needs fixed or feel the experience will be far better. So they will generally be good. Besides that one Tesla update, every other one I have had from Audi and Hyundai have improved thing's I had a complaint about or I didn't really notice anything.
There were times where I had to re-apply the settings I had set after the update, but I don't have an issue with that.
People who don't like software are going to be skeptical and not like them, but they're here to stay and I just want the dev teams to be really good at what they do and be sure to test too.
Fightnfire
Moderator
I haven't had an issue with them, every update on my GMC has been smooth and seems to have actually fixed some issues like Android Auto wireless consistency. As for Windows or Phone updates, similar. There was some issues way back in the day when I was building PC's but nothing major and other than needing to manually power cycle I've never had an issue with a phone update.
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On the one hand it allows a brand to fix things quicker/easier, but on the other hand it allows them to ship something half baked with a shrug: we'll just fix it in the field later.
I don't like not being in control of my stuff. If I can choose exactly when/where/if it happens, then I'm a little less concerned than when the thing just updates with no say on my part (like windoze).
The worst issue is that connectivity allows them to track and remotely disable stuff, or the entire truck for that part. Are you taking part in a certain civil demonstration? Gee look at that, your truck isn't working any more. How unfortunate. (They already did that with freezing bank accounts in Canada, they won't think twice about parking your truck for you).
Thankfully my truck is too old for this stuff. But if I have to buy another truck with this stuff on it I track down the fuse or the antennae or disable somehow. Of course they'll just do another change in the future where your truck doesn't work unless its connected to the cloud and accepting constant instructions and at that point I'll just hook my weedwacker to my wheelbarrel and drive to town that way.
I don't like not being in control of my stuff. If I can choose exactly when/where/if it happens, then I'm a little less concerned than when the thing just updates with no say on my part (like windoze).
The worst issue is that connectivity allows them to track and remotely disable stuff, or the entire truck for that part. Are you taking part in a certain civil demonstration? Gee look at that, your truck isn't working any more. How unfortunate. (They already did that with freezing bank accounts in Canada, they won't think twice about parking your truck for you).
Thankfully my truck is too old for this stuff. But if I have to buy another truck with this stuff on it I track down the fuse or the antennae or disable somehow. Of course they'll just do another change in the future where your truck doesn't work unless its connected to the cloud and accepting constant instructions and at that point I'll just hook my weedwacker to my wheelbarrel and drive to town that way.
True, but that is the world we live in. You can refuse updates on an iPhone for only so long. Every time we refuse, we may make ourselves more vulnerable to bad crap happening. And now it's in appliances, TVs, thermostats, etc. Hard to go full analog and stay there. And I'm not sure I would want to anyway.
I'm a software engineer so I get it. But the big difference between a truck/applicance and an iphone is that the iphone needs connectivity as part of it's "job" to bring you the features you need, whereas the truck and appliance don't need internet, don't need constant connectivity, and to date have not really brought any new features to you over the lifetime of that product.
An iphone needs internet to do mapping/facebook/email, and because of that complexity security is hard to get right and needs constant patching and updates.
My truck without any connectivity features is far more secure and less vulnerable than a truck that is downloading OTA updates, either when I choose to or behind my back.
About the only thing I'd really accept OTA updates for is stuff like navigation where roads and maps change over the course of 10 to 20 years of ownership, and ideally that navigation feature is completely air gapped from the rest of the computer/systems. They're not built like that unfortunately. But beyond that, how many times do they need to get in my truck?? It's also another reason why I prefer physical buttons.
I custom ordered my truck and left out navigation for this reason. I knew they'd never update it anyway, and my cell phone/android auto does a way better job and is already always up to date.
NMTRUCKER
Well-known member
Sort of like windows operating system updates. We put off upgrading to a new window’s OS but somehow one day one of our cats must have stepped on the right key and voila windows 10 was downloaded.
But does it really? Like you said, for security updates. It should still function fine as a phone as it did from day one. Unless they discover something that will not allow it to function under a certain condition, then an update to fix that is necessary. I feel the truck updates will be the same and not very often. These updates will just reduce the requirement for conducting recalls, that's all.
I got an email from a guy a few days ago and I had planned on including it on a truck news recap whenever I get a chance to be home and get one done. The issue was an OTA update on an F-150 which caused his radio to be completely reset and caused a considerable drop in volume. The F-150 Forum has a thread on OTA updates as well with mixed results.
There is also a concern if an OTA could disable a feature you paid for. For example, an OTA and your heated steering wheel no longer works. I think that's pretty far fetched, however, I understand the concern. OTAs are pretty new in the truck world and there isn't a lot of faith in them.
I tend to think OTAs are fine until they are not. When they are not, then there's hell to pay!! It seems that way in most of the forums I've read. Everything works as it should, not a big deal. One thing goes awry and the owner is turning off automatic updates and even disabling the antenna. There's no middle ground with some owners.
And this goes directly to your story about no one trusting anyone anymore, especially manufacturers. OTAs are simply recalls made to improve or correct something. As with most electronic updates, they sometimes cause other issues, but I think that will be the exception. Forums will point to nefarious motives like tracking what radio station you listen to.
What I'm trying to say: a phone needs internet to provide you with the intended features of the phone. Because it has internet, it also needs constant OTA updates as well, they go hand in hand. A phone is also recognized as one of those devices that constantly updates with new features and add ons, having a constant connection facilitates this.
My truck doesn't need OTA updates because it doesn't need to connect to the internet. It will never gain new features, and it shouldn't. I want my trucks to come from the factory exactly as I ordered them, and stay that way, it's an applicance. Therefore OTA updates for vehicles are a bad thing in my opinion and will be avoided/disabled by myself as it will only give the wrong people control over my truck; either hackers or gov't/law enforcement, neither of which are getting access to my appliances.
That's incorrect, you can't have OTA updates without internet access. And now because your truck has that internet access you absolutely have a security hole and the gov't/police/hackers can now have access to your truck (in theory, but in practice this has happened as well). Once you open your truck up to OTA updates, it's a constant security threat that needs patching and updates through its entire life. I can just imagine when the manufacturer says "sorry your truck is too old to connect to our new network, updates are done" and now you have hackers able to get in with no way to fix that. Good luck!
In the 5 years of ownership my truck has never needed to go to the dealer for anything. Do you think having an OTA system and all the security implications of this, is somehow worth it, and is better system than just popping into the dealer once or twice every 5+ years and getting an update applied that way?
All this OTA stuff is an absolutely terrible idea. Ask anyone who writes software and knows what they're doing.
You misinterpreted what I meant. I meant OTA's are for the purpose of correcting something about the truck. I meant that the update is not specifically about its internet access. And yeah, your truck hasn't needed that much because it's only 5 years old.
OTA systems require constant updates, either due to performing their intended function (fixing something wrong with the device) or fixing holes in the mechanism itself.
A truck is an appliance. It shouldn't need an OTA system in the first place. It's not a device where its specifically designed to use networks as part of its daily feature set (like a laptop or smart phone is).
So you weigh the risk/returns: having an OTA system in place that saves me (to date) 0 trips to the dealer, vs having a system in place that can be used and abused by third parties and anyone other than myself.
As for "only 5 years old", I would expect more updates to come at the beginning of its life vs the end. The older it gets, the less supported it gets.
I don't know whether it's just me that's super paranoid, or whether people just truly do not see the future coming and how horrifying its going to get. Kill switches are already being talked about as being "mandated". You can't kill something remotely if it has no remote access.
OTA is a completely terrible idea. It's my truck, I'll decide who has access and at what times and for what reasons.
Fightnfire
Moderator
Or, more commonly, technology improves in the future and they want to introduce that to previous years releases both for feature improvements and stability. I've had two updates to my GMC infotainment in 3 years both were to improve the wireless functionality of android auto and both helped dramatically. I don't remember the last time my phone didn't auto connect wirelessly seamlessly.
Evidently most buyers disagree as new features requiring internet connections are desired and drive sales.
My truck has built in navigation that I don't use, android auto for the win. However, if I wanted to update the maps which is important where I live as it's growing so fast I would have to go to the dealer for an update. With the improvements to wireless connectivity I just use my phone. No trips to the dealer.
I think that's true, most updates happen early in the cycle as software is tweaked and improved.
That might just be your answer.
Oddly enough my infotainment system works amazing right out of the box and has never needed updates. But if it did, they could certainly apply it while my truck is there getting an oil change.
You can disagree and be wrong. Humans do some pretty terrible stuff for themselves, "tragedy of the commons".
I mentioned maps updates a few posts back, this is about the only update that needs to happen with onboard navigation. However as I said then, these updates, if done over the air, need to be "air gapped" from the rest of the truck. And again, how frequently are you getting map updates that they can't be applied while the truck is being serviced for oil/brakes/exhaust/new battery etc etc.
Or perhaps you guys just don't know what's going on. This stuff is 100% in our future and nobody seems to care.
McCaul Sponsors Bill to Repeal Democrats’ Kill Switch in Cars Mandate
WASHINGTON – U.S. Congressman Michael McCaul (R-Texas) sponsored H.R. 6563, the No Kill Switches in Cars Act, introduced by Rep. Scott Perry (R-Pa.).
So? That's kinda the whole idea. And as Fightnfire stated, it can be used for good as well. I'd love it if mine could be updated to use Android Auto for example. Or even update the Bluetooth.
Why can't it be more? The funny part, that's what people said about cell phones in the early days. "They're just appliances, they just need to make calls." That changed and I think for the better. So why can't the vehicles be able to download new features as they come out?
That ship has pretty much sailed. The damn grocery stores have more data on us than these trucks. And we won't even talk about Google or any of the social media outlets.
I think you are being a bit too paranoid about it. Believe it or not, in today's world, it's so much better than it was. I remember when my SSN was printed in the local newspaper. Can harm be done with our trucks Tx/Rx'ng? Of course, but will it? It's like keyless entry. Can a hacker snatch the signal to use it to steal my car later? Sure, but I am more than willing to take that chance in trade for convenience.
I think you are spot on zoned. The real problem is too many people can't see beyond the end of their nose at the problems these things can cause and want everyone else to not have the option to stop them. That makes no sense to me.Oddly enough my infotainment system works amazing right out of the box and has never needed updates. But if it did, they could certainly apply it while my truck is there getting an oil change.
You can disagree and be wrong. Humans do some pretty terrible stuff for themselves, "tragedy of the commons".
I mentioned maps updates a few posts back, this is about the only update that needs to happen with onboard navigation. However as I said then, these updates, if done over the air, need to be "air gapped" from the rest of the truck. And again, how frequently are you getting map updates that they can't be applied while the truck is being serviced for oil/brakes/exhaust/new battery etc etc.
Or perhaps you guys just don't know what's going on. This stuff is 100% in our future and nobody seems to care.
McCaul Sponsors Bill to Repeal Democrats’ Kill Switch in Cars Mandate
WASHINGTON – U.S. Congressman Michael McCaul (R-Texas) sponsored H.R. 6563, the No Kill Switches in Cars Act, introduced by Rep. Scott Perry (R-Pa.).mccaul.house.gov