Another POV on the loss of basic features on vehicles

[Saddle Tramp]

Normally I don't throw in links to other car sites but designer Adrian Clark wrote an article about good design and the inclusion of features that used to be options on base vehicles.

The new angle comes from looking at fixed costs in the industry as well as having to set up the trucks for features that would be optional. (Lower cost through volume.)

How Good Design Can Make Cheap Cars Seem Less Cheap - The Autopian

Do you ever notice how every couple of years we seem to keep having the same conversations? A discussion bubbles up through the noise that feels eerily familiar – a sort of debate deja-vu. Didn’t we talk about this thing a while back? Last week I again bore witness to the meaning of Paul...

www.theautopian.com

 

[Dusdaddy]

Good article. It does make sense. And I think we all lose sight of how much these vehicles cost to build. Expenses back then were nothing like they are today.

For giggles, I calculated what the first new car was that I purchased compared to today's dollar. An $8500 1987 Jeep Comanche, today that would be $23.5K. Not far from an entry level Maverick. And that Maverick has a world of difference in it that would be like comparing that Maverick to an F150 Platinum.

 

[James-kd2cm]

Normally I don't throw in links to other car sites but designer Adrian Clark wrote an article about good design and the inclusion of features that used to be options on base vehicles.

The new angle comes from looking at fixed costs in the industry as well as having to set up the trucks for features that would be optional. (Lower cost through volume.)

How Good Design Can Make Cheap Cars Seem Less Cheap - The Autopian

Do you ever notice how every couple of years we seem to keep having the same conversations? A discussion bubbles up through the noise that feels eerily familiar – a sort of debate deja-vu. Didn’t we talk about this thing a while back? Last week I again bore witness to the meaning of Paul...

www.theautopian.com

Nice article… eye opening for improvements over the years on how cars are made.
It’s funny I owned a version of a pictured vehicle: mine was a 1980 Mazda GLC(bought used, my third car). You couldn’t get more basic than that car. 4645 in 1980 and $17700 in 2024 dollars. No air, manual everything, slow, unstable at highway speeds and rusting before 10 years old.

People don’t allow for inflation and the cost of the many extra features new cars have that we take for granted(or expect).

 

[testerdahl]

That's one long article to really say cars are better, you get more for you buck and the real problem is wages aren't keeping up creating a larger divide between the rich and the poor.

 

[Fightnfire]

That's one long article to really say cars are better, you get more for you buck and the real problem is wages aren't keeping up creating a larger divide between the rich and the poor.

I was reading an article somewhere talking about inflation dollars (10k in 2000 vs what it's worth now) isn't a good way to judge the price of a specific item eg: a vehicle. Inflation calculators are better served for a basket goods and/or services.

Prices of computers and T.V.s have come way down in price over that same period. Vehicles have gone way up. Inflation aside. Phones have stayed relatively similar in price but the phones of today are thousands of times more powerful and capable than the first smart phone. (Iphone launched in 2007 for $699, you can buy a new iPhone 16 for $799 today, not not even looking at the cheaper options)

It's interesting because a trucks capability has also stayed pretty similar. In 2000 the Ford F-150 had 8,800lbs of towing and more payload than most half tons now. I know the max towing numbers now are out there at 11-14k but the average 1/2 ton seems to be closer to 9. And... who wants to tow that much in a 1/2 ton anyway. MPG has come up, the numbers for a 2000 F-150 are 14-18 combined vs. 18-22 now. So power has come up with a better MPG but payload has come down and towing is similar so we're back to actually looking at usable capability. Keep in mind your paying more than double the fuel bill in 2024 even with the better MPG because gas was so much cheaper then vs. now. Assuming 15k miles per year the bill would be $1,500 a year vs. $3,156.

Safety is another topic but the NHTSA gave the 2000 F-150 4 or 5 out of 5 stars. Today, pretty similar. The overall fatality rate for 1mil miles driven in 2000 was 1.53, today is ~1.2. Definitely better but not earth shattering differences. (a lot less people wore seatbelts as a habit in 2000 vs 2024)

All that to say... I don't know. That loaded F-150 in 2000 was $27,000? Today it's over $80,000? That's damn close to the actual inflation number and I still don't know.

Interesting topic.

 

[testerdahl]

I was reading an article somewhere talking about inflation dollars (10k in 2000 vs what it's worth now) isn't a good way to judge the price of a specific item eg: a vehicle. Inflation calculators are better served for a basket goods and/or services.

Prices of computers and T.V.s have come way down in price over that same period. Vehicles have gone way up. Inflation aside. Phones have stayed relatively similar in price but the phones of today are thousands of times more powerful and capable than the first smart phone. (Iphone launched in 2007 for $699, you can buy a new iPhone 16 for $799 today, not not even looking at the cheaper options)

It's interesting because a trucks capability has also stayed pretty similar. In 2000 the Ford F-150 had 8,800lbs of towing and more payload than most half tons now. I know the max towing numbers now are out there at 11-14k but the average 1/2 ton seems to be closer to 9. And... who wants to tow that much in a 1/2 ton anyway. MPG has come up, the numbers for a 2000 F-150 are 14-18 combined vs. 18-22 now. So power has come up with a better MPG but payload has come down and towing is similar so we're back to actually looking at usable capability. Keep in mind your paying more than double the fuel bill in 2024 even with the better MPG because gas was so much cheaper then vs. now. Assuming 15k miles per year the bill would be $1,500 a year vs. $3,156.

Safety is another topic but the NHTSA gave the 2000 F-150 4 or 5 out of 5 stars. Today, pretty similar. The overall fatality rate for 1mil miles driven in 2000 was 1.53, today is ~1.2. Definitely better but not earth shattering differences. (a lot less people wore seatbelts as a habit in 2000 vs 2024)

All that to say... I don't know. That loaded F-150 in 2000 was $27,000? Today it's over $80,000? That's damn close to the actual inflation number and I still don't know.

Interesting topic.

I wonder if you'd be interested in what the IIHS has to say about safety? NHTSA doesn't reply to my emails, but IIHS does.

 

[Fightnfire]

I know that vehicles are much safer now than they were 25 years ago but at the time they were some of the safest, I was thinking of it more along the lines of a top safety pic then and a top safety pic now. But we are much better at protecting people in a vehicle today than we were then though the fatality per mile isn't quite as different as I expected it to be.

I would be curious in seeing it.

 

[Saddle Tramp]

That's one long article to really say cars are better, you get more for you buck and the real problem is wages aren't keeping up creating a larger divide between the rich and the poor.

He probable got paid by the word.

 

[Saddle Tramp]

All that to say... I don't know. That loaded F-150 in 2000 was $27,000? Today it's over $80,000? That's damn close to the actual inflation number and I still don't know.

Interesting topic.

I feel the same way.

 

[Dusdaddy]

I feel the same way.

And we complained then that they were over-priced. So yeah, we all agree they are expensive, but I really don't see it being any worse than 20-30 years ago. Expensive then, expensive now. Same with the price of gas, did we ever not complain about it?

 

[Fightnfire]

And we complained then that they were over-priced. So yeah, we all agree they are expensive, but I really don't see it being any worse than 20-30 years ago. Expensive then, expensive now. Same with the price of gas, did we ever not complain about it?

I can't get behind that. In 2000 trucks at 20-25k were obtainable by most middle class families. And gas.. I've only been driving since 1997 and at several periods in my driving life, and not just a blip, it's been under 2.50, even somewhat recently.

 

[testerdahl]

I can't get behind that. In 2000 trucks at 20-25k were obtainable by most middle class families. And gas.. I've only been driving since 1997 and at several periods in my driving life, and not just a blip, it's been under 2.50, even somewhat recently.

I gave you a shout out in the livestream BTW.

 

[Fightnfire]

People buy drinking water in a plastic bottle for like a dollar a quart which is $4 per gallon and then complain about the price of gas which here right now is $2.71 per gallon. Think about it.

There's a big difference between what someone chooses to spend their money vs what they have to spend their money on. Necessary and discretionary.

 

[Fightnfire]

I gave you a shout out in the livestream BTW.

I need to find the time to watch, I haven't been on YT as much lately.

 

[testerdahl]

There's a big difference between what someone chooses to spend their money vs what they have to spend their money on. Necessary and discretionary.

Not a big deal. I just thought it was funny that you said you wouldn't watch and that I gave you some props in the video.

 

[Dusdaddy]

I can't get behind that. In 2000 trucks at 20-25k were obtainable by most middle class families. And gas.. I've only been driving since 1997 and at several periods in my driving life, and not just a blip, it's been under 2.50, even somewhat recently.

Except they weren't all at that price. My 2003 Laramie was $36K new. Saying $20-25K is like looking at an ST, Tradesman, etc. $30-33K was probably the mid-range. Add inflation and it's not really that different for what you get.

 

[Fightnfire]

I looked up MSRPs for F-150 and the highest price one was 30k (Lightning), all of the rest were mid to low twenties. The Lariat was the highest trim at 26. The Harley Davidson was 30-32 but that was more of a package add on.

The Dodge Ram Laramie Quab Cab 4x4 was ~$23,000 I owned a 99 and an 01. With Add't equipment that could get up to 27kish.

The 02-03 did take a large price jump due to the refresh.

 

[Dusdaddy]

I looked up MSRPs for F-150 and the highest price one was 30k (Lightning), all of the rest were mid to low twenties. The Lariat was the highest trim at 26. The Harley Davidson was 30-32 but that was more of a package add on.

The Dodge Ram Laramie Quab Cab 4x4 was ~$23,000 I owned a 99 and an 01.

The 02-03 did take a large price jump due to the refresh.

Not sure where you got the $23K for a Laramie. My sticker was greater than that. This MSRP price doesn't even include the hemi/4wd.

 

[Fightnfire]

Not sure where you got the $23K for a Laramie. My sticker was greater than that. This MSRP price doesn't even include the hemi/4wd.

View attachment 885

That's 2003 the new generation was released in 2002 I believe and there was a large price increase to go with it. The stuff I'm quoting is from 2000. I bought a loaded 99 with some additional equipment for 25 and then an 01 for 26. You could option them up with equipment to 30ish.

 

[Fabi80]

Normally I don't throw in links to other car sites but designer Adrian Clark wrote an article about good design and the inclusion of features that used to be options on base vehicles.

The new angle comes from looking at fixed costs in the industry as well as having to set up the trucks for features that would be optional. (Lower cost through volume.)

How Good Design Can Make Cheap Cars Seem Less Cheap - The Autopian

Do you ever notice how every couple of years we seem to keep having the same conversations? A discussion bubbles up through the noise that feels eerily familiar – a sort of debate deja-vu. Didn’t we talk about this thing a while back? Last week I again bore witness to the meaning of Paul...

www.theautopian.com

It’s cool how adding more features as standard can make cheaper cars feel more premium. Thanks for the link.