Ask an Engineer anything

testerdahl

testerdahl

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As you know following this forum and my work, my brain tends to wander a lot about different ideas.

Today's idea was along the lines of asking an engineer anything that's not brand specific. I'm heading to a Ram HD event on Sunday and for some reason this idea struck me.

Here's what I'm thinking to give you some idea of the questions. Chime in if you have some. IF I get a chance to do this kind of interview, a BIG IF, I think it would be interesting.

Questions:

Do they read comments on YouTube, social media, forums, etc... (side question: how much willpower does it take to not fire back at some people. LOL)

What do they think when someone says their product was built for "planned obsolescence."

(If they have decades of experience)

How do they see new vehicle reliability? Are the new sensors, turbos, multi-gear transmissions making vehicles less reliable?

How much has changed when doing product testing? Are they doing less real-world testing due to computer software doing more of the work?

When a recall happens, what do they think about it? Do they question their work?

How much do they fight with the bean counters or product planners for their parts of the vehicle?

What is 1 or 2 things they have heard from consumers, the media, YouTube channels, etc... that's just flat out wrong?
 
I would like to know if the engineering department has a direct link to the warranty department, say the warranty department has 200 claims of a certain part having to be replaced under warranty does the warranty department contact the engineering department and tell the ASAP?
 
I've always been curious about the threat of silos in engineering departments at a vehicle manufacturer. How many engineers were there in the development of the new RAM? I assume there's worker bee jr. engineers and then leads of those departments which all funnell up to the head engineer for a new vehicle. How do the tasks parse out and what kind of group commnication exists? Does the team in charge of the suspension talk to the team developing the transmission, engine, frame, interior etc.? Are they worried about the revolving door of engineers at Stellantis?

For a GM engineer... are you aware how many people dislike the seats in GM trucks? Why has it taken so long to address? What does the testing look like for a vehicle seat? Does your testing tell you that the seat is great or better than the competition in some way? (I'm on the record saying I like the seats in my GMC, not nearly as padded or fluffy as the seats in our Expedition but better for long trips imo, I'm just tired of hearing about it)

Edit: The real questions won't be answered so I don't necessarily see the point in the process but I am curious about some things. If I gave the engineer truth serum I would ask these:

What causes the HEMI tick and why was it never solved?
Why do main bearing continue to fail in the new Tundra when the cleaning procedure for the debris issue was recognized and solved solved so long ago?
What PCT of GM 5.3 and 6.2 engines are predicted to have lifter issues? What is the best thing an owner can do to help ward it off?
Why does the Ford 10 speed have so many more issues than the twin GM 10 speed that was co developed between ford and GM?
 
Fightnfire said:
I've always been curious about the threat of silos in engineering departments at a vehicle manufacturer. How many engineers were there in the development of the new RAM? I assume there's worker bee jr. engineers and then leads of those departments which all funnell up to the head engineer for a new vehicle. How do the tasks parse out and what kind of group commnication exists? Does the team in charge of the suspension talk to the team developing the transmission, engine, frame, interior etc.? Are they worried about the revolving door of engineers at Stellantis?

For a GM engineer... are you aware how many people dislike the seats in GM trucks? Why has it taken so long to address? What does the testing look like for a vehicle seat? Does your testing tell you that the seat is great or better than the competition in some way? (I'm on the record saying I like the seats in my GMC, not nearly as padded or fluffy as the seats in our Expedition but better for long trips imo, I'm just tired of hearing about it)

Edit: The real questions won't be answered so I don't necessarily see the point in the process but I am curious about some things. If I gave the engineer truth serum I would ask these:

What causes the HEMI tick and why was it never solved?
Why do main bearing continue to fail in the new Tundra when the cleaning procedure for the debris issue was recognized and solved solved so long ago?
What PCT of GM 5.3 and 6.2 engines are predicted to have lifter issues? What is the best thing an owner can do to help ward it off?
Why does the Ford 10 speed have so many more issues than the twin GM 10 speed that was co developed between ford and GM?
Click to expand...
I did ask a GM engineer about the seats. Turns out she was in charge of the seats before being promoted. She had no clue people hated the seats for comfort. It was a pretty awkward moment. 😂
 
The problem with this is they will never answer the hard questions when you really dig deep. I think looking at the results/cars in production and the issues they are having is the only way to measure short and long term reliability. Some are better than others, and it's not brand specific, it's really year/make/model specific. I wouldn't bother asking a manufacturer how reliability is for their car, what are they going to tell you, that it sucks or that it's just average? No...they'll always tell you how it's the best it has ever been, and have their canned reasons why it's better than X, Y, Z.

Remember when Toyota was telling you why a C-channel frame was better than full boxed in the Tundra, when asked why the F-150 has fully boxed ladder frame and they don't? Now the Tundra has a boxed frame, I wonder if the C-Channel is still better?

Remember when Toyota told us why they didn't use disc brakes on the rear of the Tacoma (but they did the tundra), and how it was "better" for various reasons. Now the new Tacoma has disc on rear. They have their canned answers, and they have guard rails, things will be tested and evaluated/judged in the real world which is partially what is happening online (what you are referring to).

Were they lying then or are they lying now?

Another example, when Sheldon Brown of Toyota was asked how many miles are put on the new Tacoma in testing in the real world, he said something like "I can't say" and that's their "secret sauce" "we put it through it's paces".

In my opinion, that tells me everything I need to know about how even Toyota has started to favor profits over reliability.

When someone is proud of product quality they typically brag about things like how long it took to get perfect, how much it was tested, how the entire goal was quality....I just don't see that much anymore.

Then there's the argument that they are "selling" vehicles so they must be doing it right. True, sales are up, but much of them are leases, long term bank loans, commercial sales, and subsidies for all manufacturers. None of this is targeting long term ownership or talking about second hand ownership, beyond warranty. I would ask them how second hand owners are going to deal with the cost of repairs being sometimes double or triple on these newer vehicles once the market gets saturated with them, and the more simple/cheaper to repair vehicles are all aging and off the road?

I think sales would still be at the same level even if they reduced a lot of the tech on vehicles, but they are still going to chase power with the powertrains and build things relatively the same (turbo/electric/hybrid) etc regardless of what some people want. It's a "spec sheet race".

Most consumers I talk to would be happy with average safety features (blind spot monitoring/simple parking sensors/backup cam/airbags etc.) that have been around and mostly reliable for years, and wireless Carplay/Android Auto, none of those require much complexity and were in vehicles even 10-15 years ago. Other tech/semiconductors could be left out of the vehicle and there would be zero reason to have the vehicle connected to the cloud. I suppose there might be folks that still want the OnStar style connectivity, but it doesn't need to come with a side of spying and another side of telemetry data captured, it could just be "consumer initiated connections only".

I can tell you how I think this is going to play out, go look at every BMW made in the past 15 years and how quickly they depreciate/become nightmares to maintain. I have worked on them, and most domestics are just following the path that BMW took years ago. It works to sell the car, but it does not make for a reliable vehicle long term (into second hand ownership). Can you make a BMW powertrain last 200k+ miles? Sure, but I can tell you it's not fun getting there and is almost always not a fun experience past 100k or 150k miles.

I could end up being wrong, I hope so, but it feels like we have already watched this show, and about halfway through the show it really stunk :).
 
The Car Guy said:
The problem with this is they will never answer the hard questions when you really dig deep. I think looking at the results/cars in production and the issues they are having is the only way to measure short and long term reliability. Some are better than others, and it's not brand specific, it's really year/make/model specific. I wouldn't bother asking a manufacturer how reliability is for their car, what are they going to tell you, that it sucks or that it's just average? No...they'll always tell you how it's the best it has ever been, and have their canned reasons why it's better than X, Y, Z.

Remember when Toyota was telling you why a C-channel frame was better than full boxed in the Tundra, when asked why the F-150 has fully boxed ladder frame and they don't? Now the Tundra has a boxed frame, I wonder if the C-Channel is still better?

Remember when Toyota told us why they didn't use disc brakes on the rear of the Tacoma (but they did the tundra), and how it was "better" for various reasons. Now the new Tacoma has disc on rear. They have their canned answers, and they have guard rails, things will be tested and evaluated/judged in the real world which is partially what is happening online (what you are referring to).

Were they lying then or are they lying now?

Another example, when Sheldon Brown of Toyota was asked how many miles are put on the new Tacoma in testing in the real world, he said something like "I can't say" and that's their "secret sauce" "we put it through it's paces".

In my opinion, that tells me everything I need to know about how even Toyota has started to favor profits over reliability.

When someone is proud of product quality they typically brag about things like how long it took to get perfect, how much it was tested, how the entire goal was quality....I just don't see that much anymore.

Then there's the argument that they are "selling" vehicles so they must be doing it right. True, sales are up, but much of them are leases, long term bank loans, commercial sales, and subsidies for all manufacturers. None of this is targeting long term ownership or talking about second hand ownership, beyond warranty. I would ask them how second hand owners are going to deal with the cost of repairs being sometimes double or triple on these newer vehicles once the market gets saturated with them, and the more simple/cheaper to repair vehicles are all aging and off the road?

I think sales would still be at the same level even if they reduced a lot of the tech on vehicles, but they are still going to chase power with the powertrains and build things relatively the same (turbo/electric/hybrid) etc regardless of what some people want. It's a "spec sheet race".

Most consumers I talk to would be happy with average safety features (blind spot monitoring/simple parking sensors/backup cam/airbags etc.) that have been around and mostly reliable for years, and wireless Carplay/Android Auto, none of those require much complexity and were in vehicles even 10-15 years ago. Other tech/semiconductors could be left out of the vehicle and there would be zero reason to have the vehicle connected to the cloud. I suppose there might be folks that still want the OnStar style connectivity, but it doesn't need to come with a side of spying and another side of telemetry data captured, it could just be "consumer initiated connections only".

I can tell you how I think this is going to play out, go look at every BMW made in the past 15 years and how quickly they depreciate/become nightmares to maintain. I have worked on them, and most domestics are just following the path that BMW took years ago. It works to sell the car, but it does not make for a reliable vehicle long term (into second hand ownership). Can you make a BMW powertrain last 200k+ miles? Sure, but I can tell you it's not fun getting there and is almost always not a fun experience past 100k or 150k miles.

I could end up being wrong, I hope so, but it feels like we have already watched this show, and about halfway through the show it really stunk :).
Click to expand...
A few thoughts.

1. If an engineer told you they tested 20 trucks at 100k miles would that matter? You’d say why did you test 30 trucks at 200k? No matter the number, I don’t see you being happy. It just gives you more ammo to say “well they told me 30 trucks, but they must have been lying because here’s a recall.”

There’s no winning for the engineers here.

2. Lying about C channel. C’mon man. They found a new way to weld. Can’t Toyota change when a new welding technique is learned?

3. Cloud connections aka Over the air updates. Consumers love them.

4. Chasing HP. People love tech. Many buy based on the biggest screen size and most features.

I’m old and cranky, but damn does your POV come off more as the “get off my lawn type.”

5. I appreciate the second hand owners angle, but if you are a company, why would you care about them? I sure wouldn’t.
 
testerdahl said:
A few thoughts.

1. If an engineer told you they tested 20 trucks at 100k miles would that matter? You’d say why did you test 30 trucks at 200k? No matter the number, I don’t see you being happy. It just gives you more ammo to say “well they told me 30 trucks, but they must have been lying because here’s a recall.”

There’s no winning for the engineers here.

2. Lying about C channel. C’mon man. They found a new way to weld. Can’t Toyota change when a new welding technique is learned?

3. Cloud connections aka Over the air updates. Consumers love them.

4. Chasing HP. People love tech. Many buy based on the biggest screen size and most features.

I’m old and cranky, but damn does your POV come off more as the “get off my lawn type.”

5. I appreciate the second hand owners angle, but if you are a company, why would you care about them? I sure wouldn’t.
Click to expand...

1: How about we just start with them answering the question first and see where it goes? How many trucks and how many miles tested in the real world, sure, start with that. Whatever the answer is, let the public decide. I'm guessing they won't tell you though on camera.. If they test to 100k that would be a very basic start but generally considered "just breaking in" for Toyotas of old, but for 60-80k trucks I would expect at least 200k without issues. I have higher standards given the cost. I don't think that's unreasonable do you?

2: Toyota used to claim C channel was better because it flexed more in certain situations and had a better ride...so now is that not true or does the new boxed frame flex the same? I thought the new selling point was rigidity. Now we need rigid non-flex frames, it's better now that they can weld a new way that doesn't cost as much in materials. They are using thinner materials now (lower cost), and they refined welding so they can "increase strength where needed" with thicker areas then "thin the frame out where it's not needed". From a company that has traditionally had frame/rust issues in the past, I think it's not the wisest decision. Just my opinion. We'll see how the frames hold up in 15 years.

3: Cloud connections to update vehicle firmware/OS are NOT what I'm talking about but I think you know that. They aren't just updating the "OS" in the car, they are sucking data out too. When they are collecting telemetry data about your car constantly and you can't really stop that it's an invasion of privacy IMO. Their BS about anonymizing your data is just that, BS, they can turn off the "anonymous" part any time they want (e.g. FBI asks for a list of cars in a certain area at a certain time etc.), and you can't opt out/turn off the software that requires all of the data that's something different entirely. When they want to monetize you through "super cruise" or other things like software upgradable heated seats...or whatever weird ideas they come up with next, that's just more complexity for profit motives. Having a cloud update of operating systems/firmwares that make a car better is fine when the purpose is to support and improve the car you sold, that's not what is happening here, though it's used as the excuse to kitchen sink all the data the car can collect now.

4: They can build extremely reliable vehicles with tech but they have discovered an entirely new set of revenue streams to exploit, the tech doesn't need to spy or do more than the consumer wants to allow in a perfect world. You can buy aftermarket ipad sized screens for 2005 honda accords for $200 that don't upload a bit of data to anyone. You get cameras, wireless carplay/AA, and everything without a single bit uploaded to the cloud for old cars, so telling me this isn't possible on new cars without the cloud telemetry is just, not correct. You can still update the OS/firmware over the air when you want as well...sort of like a one way street with data.

5: I am a second hand owner 99% of the time. Saying "why would you care about them" is a bit like saying "let them eat cake" :). Companies is a pretty broad term. I see plenty of companies/fleet guys that are really struggling with reliability depending on the brand they bought. I see plenty that have no issues too, it's not just one sided. The difference is the cost is much higher to maintain now, and fewer shops can even service these vehicles. Even if something is reliable (powertrain wise), there are more electronic issues and problems with newer cars that require them to see the dealer, sometimes by design. The argument of "security" is a strawman argument that falls flat when you think about it. If it were true, every car to date would all of the sudden be susceptible to these "security issues"....yet they aren't. The less connected a car is and fewer radio signals it has to respond to data requests, the more secure it is.

My point of view is based on data and my personal experiences, that's all, and a bit of foresight to see potential problems in the future given my experience in the software and hardware industry. It really has nothing to do with my lawn, it's just my opinion on modern engineering and profit driven motives. I think cars are getting less reliable and the second hand market will be a mess in years to come for all the reasons stated, but I could be wrong. The engineers are generally not the problem from a knowledge standpoint or what they wish they could do but they simply don't get the option to overbuild things for us, the profit motives will not allow that.

Your opinion is different and I get it, I can see why you have the perspective you do, new vehicles are no doubt fun to drive and I don't really blame you for that. I just don't agree in many aspects because I don't drive new trucks for 10,000 miles then trade them for new ones. If I did, I'm sure I would enjoy those new trucks for the most part (not worrying about any sort of long term ownership issues). I'm a different type of buyer and owner 99% of the time.
 
testerdahl said:
A few thoughts.

1. If an engineer told you they tested 20 trucks at 100k miles would that matter? You’d say why did you test 30 trucks at 200k? No matter the number, I don’t see you being happy. It just gives you more ammo to say “well they told me 30 trucks, but they must have been lying because here’s a recall.”

There’s no winning for the engineers here.

2. Lying about C channel. C’mon man. They found a new way to weld. Can’t Toyota change when a new welding technique is learned?

3. Cloud connections aka Over the air updates. Consumers love them.

4. Chasing HP. People love tech. Many buy based on the biggest screen size and most features.

I’m old and cranky, but damn does your POV come off more as the “get off my lawn type.”

5. I appreciate the second hand owners angle, but if you are a company, why would you care about them? I sure wouldn’t.
Click to expand...

I agree with all Tims points on this.

I don't see this big "conspiracy" with companies and manufacturing. Everyone is out there working for a wage trying to do a respectable job. They are no different in their jobs than we are in ours, just a different field. We all act in our jobs the same way yet look at this and say, "but my company is different". And if you work for a large company, you know what matters and that's profitability. You cannot survive in the world any other way. The only field that doesn't care about that is the gov't and they get hammered for it. Designers/engineers fight marketing/sales and the accountants, always. I know because I was a referee for it all but usually ended up on the accountant's side.

The Hemi tick and other valve train problem motors? Like Fightnfire, I'd love to know the root cause and just put all the rumors to rest. I bet they know but won't say. Sure, I bet they could even fix it, but it's not worth it. Spending a gazillion dollars to advertise "same hp/tq but no tick!" will not sell more trucks. The better way to fix it was the development of the 3.0L. "Tick? What tick? Look at this shiny new button!"

I know why they collect and sell data, it's an additional revenue stream. It's not like car manufacturers are the only ones. Apple, grocery stores, Costco, Amazon, Spotify, etc. all do it every day. It's the world we live in.

As for basic, stripped, no screen having cars and trucks? Sure, they'd sell a few, but not enough to stay relevant or in business for long. Can anyone remember when the Tradesman or ST was the biggest selling model? Besides, if they pumped out the same product every year, even those types of buyers would move on. It's bad enough they get crucified because the newest model doesn't have more hp/tq or mpg than the previous.




My questions to ask are like others.

What are the biggest myths floating around these forums and YT about their product that they helped design? Or what are the biggest myths based on their area of expertise? Like oil experts or turbos, trannys, etc.

Why does it take so long to fix certain issues that get complained about like the seats? Do they really not know?
 
I think the truth is in the middle it's always in the middle in some ways it's closer to Tim's point of view and in some ways it's closer to a car guys point of view.

That's why I talked about silos, for the seat engineer at GM to say that she didn't know people didn't like their seats is ridiculous.

That can't be an isolated incident and could very well be a symptom of a much bigger problem and I would bet money that problem exists at all of the manufacturers.

I guess that's why I don't value the engineer conversations very much. I forget which one you had on that got into depth with oil, that was interesting. But I don't need to hear from Sheldon anymore for a lot of the same reasons a car guy mentioned.
 
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It is interesting. I’m thinking about what questions I’ve had over the years (because I have owned 4 dodge/ram trucks in a row starting in 2002). This is without asking any trap questions. Feel free to ignore all of these.
First a comment: there’s a reason I’ve stuck with Ram… I’ve had excellent luck with each one and they’ve exceeded my expectations.
-have they looked at adding more standard tie downs in the box of all 1500s? I assume there are still 4.
-Have there been any discussions to make it easier to add certain things to rams after purchase? I know marketing wise they want you to buy the higher trim. In my case it was bed lighting and tow hooks. My truck came with neither. I can after market the OEM style tow hooks. But, I would require an entirely new wiring harness to do an oem upgrade for bed lighting on my 2023 ram 1500 sport.
-have they looked at any type of built in bumper or fender step like GM? They probably can’t answer that.
-a funny one: have they looked at adding a dipstick back into the hurricane to make the old school guys happy?
-you mentioned asking about YouTube comments. How about if they look at owner forums?

I’ll stop there… no need to write a book.d
 
Fightnfire said:
Doesn't that tell us all we need to know about engineers in the vehicle manufacturing business?
Click to expand...
The vehicle manufacturer probably tries to keep the engineer isolated and working on only the specs management gives them. Similar to a lot of dealer experiences where they don’t want you to interact with the mechanic.
As a retired IT guy we would develop systems according to specs given but not necessarily what could have been developed with more user input. By that same token a lot of the users had “more important things to do” rather than contribute if we were even given the opportunity to gather more specs…lol
 
James-kd2cm said:
The vehicle manufacturer probably tries to keep the engineer isolated and working on only the specs management gives them. Similar to a lot of dealer experiences where they don’t want you to interact with the mechanic.
As a retired IT guy we would develop systems according to specs given but not necessarily what could have been developed with more user input. By that same token a lot of the users had “more important things to do” rather than contribute if we were even given the opportunity to gather more specs…lol
Click to expand...
That's why I was talking about silos it's obvious they work in them and it's exactly the thing that leads to decreased reliability, quality and lack of innovation.
 
Interview done and I'm pretty happy with it overall. Traveling right now and I might get a chance to push it out later tonight.

I learned a few things about reliability and testing. Also, found out the specific testing information is not public due to the legal department. The facts are automakers get sued everyday for all sorts of things and the more information they make public, the more ammo lawyers have. I realize this isn't the answer some people wanted, but welcome to lawsuit crazy America.
 
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